This is the final part of a two-part series. Special thanks to Leslie Guthrie for this guest post interviewing Mr. Thornton.

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[Lightly edited for length, clarity, and language. Publication of this interview is not an endorsement of the opinions expressed within the interview.]

Please introduce yourself briefly and share about your current position, and any relevant positions, past internships or fellowships leading up to your job.

Brandon Thornton. I work in the Felony Trial Unit of the Public Defender’s Office. This is my sixth year there. I’ve been with the Public Defenders for 15 years: Started out in Juvenile. Did a brief bit of time at Central Booking? I spent four years at the misdemeanor trial unit.

In law school, I worked one summer for a small civil rights firm. One year I did a clinic for housing and economic development. Afterward, I was a judicial law clerk for Circuit Court in Baltimore City.

At what point did you figure out what you wanted to do? And how do you think the timing of that realization impacted where you are today?

Part of that process is contingent on where you’re hired. So, I had applied for the Public Defender’s Office partially because I had a lot of exposure as a judicial law clerk on the criminal docket. I got to see the employees of the office.

I actually had to push my start date back because of the work I was doing in the judicial clerkship.

My junior year of undergrad, I interned for the same chambers. I remember some of the attorneys that were there. And I had no idea what was going on. As a law clerk, I had questions and was responsible for some stuff that was happening in court.  I needed to understand what was going on. I didn’t understand the dynamic of trial. The judge had to explain a lot to me, but when you start to understand…you develop a certain compassion, a balance of fairness.

The narrative you usually get is law enforcement, crime, and punishment. There’s a crime, and we need to investigate. I got a more balanced perspective in that clerkship, from watching my judge. You have to keep in mind there are people on the other side of the table. You get to see that what’s alleged isn’t exactly what is.

Can you briefly describe the different types of work that the attorneys in your office do? (direct client work, research/writing, policy/advocacy, etc.)

We do almost everything there is to do concerning criminal defense. We do bail reviews. We do trial work.  We do an investigation. We hire investigators to do the investigation. We do legal research. We raise legal issues. We make sure the state has provided everything they need to provide. We manage big caseloads, so we have to manage our calendar.

Client work depends on the case and the client. Some clients are easier to get along with, and some aren’t. It just really depends on personality.

Are there any myths or beliefs about public interest law jobs that you have found to be inaccurate and false?

People may not know we work. We do our jobs. To do our jobs, we have to work beyond the hours you’re expected to work. Many people in my office are true believers for justice. By virtue of the volume of what we do, we have a lot of experience. We handle over 1,000 cases in a year. You’ve got to get a sense of what you’re doing.

…[S]ome people in private practice have to market themselves. You have to ask the question, “What distinguishes you from any other attorney I could hire? Or why shouldn’t I go with the Public Defender’s Office?” To sell themselves and distinguish themselves from us, they may say something that’s not so kind about what we do and how we do it. When in reality, we do so much of it.  

People often say that you learn how to do the work of lawyering on the job after graduation, but what type of skills building experiences can law students pursue to start the process of being an effective advocate?

Do clinic or mock experiences. Maybe come to the courthouse and copy statements of probable cause. Maybe contact the Public Defender’s Office to get a mock discovery packet. Or volunteer at the Public Defender’s Office, obviously. We always need help. See what the people who do that work do.

Find a way to find someone who does the role well of an adversary, who is going to challenge you.

Can you talk a little bit about the public interest law community and any recommendations you have to build your network and reputation as a law student?

There are a whole bunch of trial organizations, like the National Association of Defense Attorneys and a national public defender organization. They have a lot of resources and training. There’s this guy, Jonathan Rapping. His philosophy is of transformational advocacy, letting your client know that they have an advocate, someone who is going to tell their story and their side. There’s something to be said for being effective. You need to know the climate in which you operate, the system where you are. Get to know what works and doesn’t work. Learn what’s the best and fastest way to deal with some situations.

Some people see this as an isolated profession, where “all we have is us.” I disagree. You should work on professional development. Be a part of the Bar Association. Get to know other people. Be politically active. Public Defense isn’t the end all be all. You can do this to get the experience and see what the needs are.

You have to have your Continuing Legal Education. Participate in different programs. Some people do it for that purpose. But in each place, you have to contribute. If you want to be effective everywhere you go, contribute. Try to make sure the organization is effective. Try to make sure the content is relevant to what people need. Try to have happy hours, so you have an opportunity to socialize and gather. Think of ways in that organization to improve the practice of law in the criminal justice community.

Students expected to make less money when going into the public sector, but now face not being able to find a job.  Do you have recommendations for those committed to a career in public interest law?

Get a financial planner and/ or a financial plan. Investigate different ways for financial assistance, loan repayment. Although, I’ve heard the people say that that isn’t working out.

What do you think is the most pressing issue in our field today [such as international human rights, environment, civil rights, poverty law, etc.], and how would you resolve it?

I think everything in the criminal justice system needs to be rethought. The politics of prosecution needs to be rethought. The funding of the State’s Attorney’s Office is based on numbers, like any grant or other organization. You have to show certain benchmarks. You have to show certain arrests, convictions. So, to secure funding for the next year, you have to show you increased the number of arrests. Now you have to generate food for the system. And that translates into bodies. So now you’re arresting more people. You’re prosecuting more people. You’re recommending increased sentences so you can get more money for next year and secure your job.

It’s easy to generate money for law enforcement and the State Attorney’s Office, but there’s no advocate for the public defense work. I understand that not every politician wants to be responsible for saying, “We want to raise money for criminals.” Because that’s what some people would think. But the marketing pitch is more, “We are raising money to protect people’s rights.” Public defense is underfunded. There’s not really an advocate for that. We are chronically underfunded. We are chronically understaffed. People are bailing out of this system left and right. It’s just too much. And it makes you feel like the whole system is designed to fail.

Courts are not equipped to deal with the number of cases. There’s pressure that’s put on courts: judges respond to news stories. They don’t want to be in the news. So, the things that they do are geared towards keeping them out of public scrutiny. That may not necessarily translate to fairness or what’s appropriate for an individual.

The criminal justice system is a giant Band-Aid. What about meaningful economic development? You need leaders in other parts of society to keep people from getting to this point.

Can you recommend any valuable resources, websites, and organizations that have helped you in pursuing your career path?

I don’t know. The world has changed. The internet is much more developed now than when I was coming up. The person responsible for hiring me, I had already met him before I applied. It’s conventional wisdom now. You have to make inroads before you apply. Get the experience. Know how to get things done.

Don’t come into it cold, unless you’re going to do a crazy, excellent job that no one is ever going to forget you. Cover all your bases. Do a good job, so you’re well recommended by the people who do come in contact with you. But you got to show your face, so people know who you are. And not just the people who you’re working with. Those people aren’t necessarily the people who are going to have any swing in you being hired. You’re going to have to figure out how you’re going to cross paths with the people in leadership. Where are they networking? So, you can be there and introduce yourself.

What would you have wanted to know as a law student interested in working the public interest law sector?

I wish I had thought more about my career. I wish I had mapped out my career. You might spend more time in a place than you were anticipating. The experience that you seek may not come when you want it. So, you have to figure out how long you have to be in a place. Get a feel for how long it takes to get the hang of something. For me, it takes about two years. But I spent more than two years in each unit I’ve been in. Some of the guys I started with, they’re long gone. And there is a large number of people that I don’t know.

If you feel like you’ve been somewhere too long and there’s not the opportunity for growth, professional development, then you have to figure out what you want to do next.

Any final tips/things to avoid for those wanting to take a similar path as you?

Figure out for your self why you are doing the work you’re doing. The faster you figure that out, the better. …When the rubber hits the road, reality can be an extreme culture shock. If you’re a woman and you’re getting hit on by people who are incarcerated and aren’t restrained in any visible way…it can scare [] you. If you get into a verbal altercation at the jail, it can scare [] you – especially if you know what they’re charged with and think they can do this to you. If you get into court and a judge yells at you, it’s like [forget] this. I’m an adult, and that phase of my life is gone where people should be talking to me like that. Be ready for it. It’s not in the job description. 

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