by Ashley Matthews, PSJD Fellow

Editor’s note: Our “Expert Opinion” series offers thoughts, insights, and career advice from public interest lawyers, law students, and others who work for the public good.  This edition’s Expert is Adriana Dinis, a staff attorney with Gulfcoast Legal Service’s CHILD program. Dinis was a featured speaker at the 2013 Annual NALP Conference, and her journey to advocating for the rights of immigrant children was incredibly inspiring. On to the interview…

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by Kristian Smith, PSJD Summer Projects and Publications Coordinator

This article is part one of a two part series about alternative public interest work. Check back next week for Part Two: Private Public Interest Firms.

When many law students and new lawyers are beginning to plan for their careers, they usually have to make a choice between working at a law firm or practicing public interest work. While law firms and public interest work are typically viewed as mutually exclusive, there are many ways for law students and new lawyers to do public interest work while still gaining training and experience at a law firm.

Many large, traditional law firms now have opportunities for attorneys to work on public interest projects while still receiving the training and resources that come along with large firms. With OCI and summer associate hiring fast-approaching, this is something for law students to keep in mind when looking for jobs.

Erica Knievel Songer, an associate at Hogan Lovells, has had a unique experience as a law-firm associate who has been able to spend much of her time at the firm working solely on pro bono projects. Songer said that Hogan’s pro bono practice has a rotation process for junior and senior attorneys to work solely on public interest work for a year at a time.  She said that she has been able to work on many different types of cases – from housing to voting rights – and that her firm encourages all attorneys to practice pro bono work. She said that doing public interest work at a law firm, as opposed to a non-profit or legal services agency, provides a wealth of resources that make it easier to make a difference in the lives of others.

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It’s tough to “network.”  Most folks don’t even have a good idea as to what networking is.  The following from our friends at the Government Executive Magazine is a great road map for success at all those summer functions you’ll be delighted to attend.

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Editor’s note: our “Expert Opinion” series offers thoughts, insights, and career advice from public interest lawyers, law students, and others who work for the public good.  This week’s Expert is Michele Storms, Assistant Dean for Public Service & executive director of the W.H. Gates Public Service Law Program at the University of Washington School of Law.  On to the interview with Michele…

Michele Storms

Can you give us a brief outline of how you got to the job you are in today?

I went to law school because I wanted to be a civil legal aid lawyer and I was really fortunate that I…actually had a legal aid job by the time I graduated.  At my first position I represented domestic violence survivors in protection order and family law cases.  I would have happily done a legal aid practice for my whole career but about six years into my first job I learned of an opportunity to be a clinical teacher at a law school.  Being in clinic during law school was the best part of school and I thought being a clinical law teacher would be amazing.  I was lucky to be hired at the University of Washington School of Law and spent the next 8 years teaching clinics, family law and child advocacy.  As much as I loved doing the clinical work, legal aid was still my passion and when an opportunity arose to return to legal aid on the management side I went for it and then spent the next four years as a statewide advocacy coordinator back at legal aid.  I worked on statewide training events, helped to facilitate several substantive area task forces, mentored and supervised advocates and did a lot of community outreach around access to justice issues.   Now I am back at the University of Washington School of Law – I first returned to direct the Gates Scholarship Program and the job has now evolved into being the Assistant Dean for Public Service.

Was this position what you originally planned on doing, or was your career trajectory part of an evolving process?  

I never imagined I would one day be an assistant dean at a law school!  Getting to where I am today has definitely been an evolution.   What I learned from my first few positions was that I loved public interest law but I also loved working with students.  I’m really fortunate that I am able to combine these two loves.  Although I no longer work directly with clients on legal cases, I am helping many students achieve their public interest dreams by providing career coaching, access to programming, speakers, mentors, funding and more.

How did your contacts with previous employers, professors, and colleagues influence your job search, if any?  

I’ve had some great mentors over time.  I’ve been lucky to have people who were honest with me about my skills and talents and areas for growth and this has helped me figure out which opportunities are best for me.  I’ve also always gotten involved in a lot of committees and community work over the years and I’ve met so many amazing people.  Learning about what other people do and how they’ve achieved their positions has also been educational for me.  I’m thrilled with what I am doing now but who knows what else I might do in my career!  I like to keep an open mind and heart.

Would you change your preparation for this position in any way if you had the chance? 

Every position I had —whether paying job or volunteer opportunity — taught me things that I would need for the next position.  I didn’t always know which position would come next but I dug into every opportunity with gusto and gave it all my best.  So I probably would not change anything!

A very real concern for many law students hesitant to pursue public interest jobs is how to pay off student loans. How have you utilized repayment plans or other programs to balance paying student debt, if any, with living expenses?   

Fortunately during my first year of law school at Gonzaga University School of Law I applied for and was selected to be a Thomas More Scholar.  The Thomas More Program paid my tuition for my 2 and 3L years so I only took out a small number of loans.  I lived very frugally during law school which paid off in the end.  When I started my first civil legal aid job at Evergreen Legal Services they had a loan repayment program which I was able to participate in for the first few years of my practice.   Even though my salary was low, I paid as much as I could in addition to the payments made by my employer so it helped me to get my loans paid off relatively quickly.   Law school costs a lot more now than it did when I went to law school.  So when students are considering law school I always encourage them to apply to schools that have public service scholarships and to apply for the programs – don’t think you don’t have a chance.  You have to go for it.  And then, regardless of whether you get into a scholarship program, take as few loans as you possibly can.

What advice would you offer to law students seeking a position in the public interest arena?

If you really have a passion for public interest work then there is a way to make it happen, you should never give up but you do have to be patient and strategic.  I really wanted to do civil legal aid and those jobs don’t come open very often – but they do come.  If you can be flexible about where you start your practice you’ll increase your chances of getting to do the kind of work you care about so being willing to move someplace new is a plus.   The first job I applied for was in a small rural community I had never visited before.  I would have gone anywhere to do this work!   I wasn’t hired for that position but I think my willingness to interview for what some considered a less desirable position opened other doors for me.  Volunteering is also a great way to get your foot in the door.  Don’t be afraid to reach out to people who have the kind of job you want.  Shadow them, seek them out as mentors and offer to help out however you can.  I see this technique working for recent grads over and over again.  The need for public interest lawyers is huge even though the resources are limited.  There are so many people who need representation and so many causes that need champions.  So most importantly, never give up!

[Ed. Note: Expert Opinion” is a weekly feature which offers insight , opinion, and career advice from attorneys in a broad array of public interest positions.  This week’s post features Q&A with Professor Emily Benfer of the Loyola University School of Law.]

Emily A. Benfer is a Clinical Professor of Law and the founding Director of the Health Justice Project a medical-legal partnership at at Loyola University Chicago School of Law, Beazley Institute for Health Law and Policy.  Professor Benfer has dedicated her career to serving the public interest. She was a legal intern for Judge David Hamilton, the Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights, the Indiana Protective Order Pro Bono Project, and the Washington Legal Clinic for the Homeless. She received an Arnold & Porter Equal Justice Works Fellowship to implement the advocacy and litigation strategy that she designed in order to represent, and improve the District’s response to, homeless families, children and youth. She then represented preschool aged children with disabilities in a successful class action against the District of Columbia. As a Staff Attorney and Teaching Fellow in the Georgetown University Law Center Federal Legislation and Administrative Clinic, she supervised and mentored law students on an array of legislative advocacy projects.

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Can you give us a brief outline of how you got to the job you are in today? Was this position what you originally planned on doing, or was your career trajectory part of an evolving process?

After serving as a Peace Corps volunteer, I worked as a paralegal at New Haven Legal Assistance Association, Inc. in Connecticut. In both experiences, I confronted poverty, injustice and inequality and I gained a better understanding of the skills and strategies necessary to cause social change. I determined to develop and employ these skills in an effort to ensure social justice. At the time, I thought this meant working in the trenches and advocating for clients. I quickly learned that there is no one right way to tackle injustice and that, in order to be truly effective, one must become a lifelong learner and gather and hone skills throughout one’s career.

Toward that end, I am drawn to professional opportunities that will challenge me to expand my skillset to become a more effective advocate. During my career, I have represented individual clients, organized, and passed local legislation (as an Equal Justice Works Fellow at the Washington Legal Clinic for the Homeless). I responded to patterns of injustice by gaining experience in class action litigation (at a public interest firm where I successfully represented a class of students with disabilities). I learned about and contributed to public policy creation and the federal legislative process (as a Supervising Attorney and Teaching Fellow at Georgetown Law Center’s Federal Legislation Clinic). 

As a Teaching Fellow at Georgetown Law Center, I recognized the importance of mentoring and teaching the next generation of public interest lawyers. As a Clinical Professor of Law, I am able to simultaneously respond to social injustice in our communities while encouraging others to join in the effort by supporting and training law students.

What internships or activities did you complete in law school that helped prepare you for this position?

Logging over 800 hours, I took advantage of every pro bono opportunity offered by the law school. These cases gave me hands on experience and better prepared me to represent clients and develop the attorney-client relationship immediately after earning a law degree. I served as a law clerk at the Washington Legal Clinic for the Homeless, Lawyers’ Committee for Civil Rights, the Protective Order Pro Bono Program, United States District Court, Southern District of Indiana.

In addition, I served in leadership positions in law school organizations and on local and national boards of directors. These experiences provided me with insight about organizational management, coalition building, and perspective on nationwide approaches to injustice.

How did your contacts with previous employers, professors, and colleagues influence your job search, if any?

I have asked and followed the advice of my mentors (previous employers, professors and colleagues) throughout my career trajectory. It is incredibly important to seek out and build relationships with people who have similar goals and greater experience. They need not be lawyers but they should believe in a similar mission. Among the most fulfilling and important relationships in my life are those with my mentors. They have challenged me, inspired me, guided me, shaped my ethics, expanded my ambitions, and provided sage advice. They are exemplary heroes.

Would you change your preparation for this position in any way if you had the chance?

I would have enrolled in a clinic during law school.

Thanks, Emily!

[Editor’s note: “Expert Opinion” is a weekly feature which offers insight , opinion, and career advice from attorneys in a broad array of public interest positions.  This week’s post is an interview with Alejandro Reyes that was conducted by PSJD’s Summer Publications Coordinator, Maria Hibbard.  In the interest of full disclosure, Alejandro has bought your PSJD blog editor some great Thai lunches over the years.  Next one’s on me.  Thanks for sharing your experience and wisdom, Alejandro!] 

An Interview with Alejandro Reyes….

Alejandro Reyes is counsel at the Laywers’ Committee for Civil Rights Under Law in Washington, D.C., where as a member of the Legal Mobilization Project he works on civil rights issues related to fair housing, voting, and immigrant rights. After hearing him speak on a panel at the Washington Council of Lawyers’ annual Summer Forum, I sat down to talk with him more about his path to becoming a public interest lawyer.  After graduating from the Howard University School of Law, he went on to complete an Equal Justice Works fellowship with Gulfcoast Legal Services and then worked as an attorney with Florida Legal Services.

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Can you give us a brief outline of how you advanced to the job you are in today? Was this position what you originally planned on doing, or was your career trajectory part of an evolving process?

No career is a straight line–although I started law school wanting to be a public interest lawyer, and specifically an immigration lawyer. I was teaching ESL classes in D.C., and one of the main problems that I saw among the individuals I worked with was that they were paying huge sums of money to firms to solve their immigration issues, even when they didn’t have cases. That’s when I started thinking about going to law school and getting more serious about the process. In law school, I did two summer internships that were immigration related and one civil rights policy internship, and they really solidified my interests. When I was getting close to graduating law school, I was pretty sure I wanted to pursue a fellowship–specifically an Equal Justice Works fellowship–and I started talking to my internship host at the time (Gulfcoast Legal Services) about the possibility of being a fellowship sponsor.

How did your contacts with previous employers, professors, and colleagues influence your job search, if any?

Talking to my supervisor at Gulfcoast Legal Services and others that I met through the organization helped define what my fellowship project would look like. Even though they had just secured another immigration-focused Equal Justice Works fellow and didn’t think they could sponsor another one, I was eventually introduced to the idea of doing a fellowship proposal based on farm worker and migrant rights.  Even though it was not what I was originally focused on, it was related, and it allowed me to do a fellowship at an organization where I wanted to be.

Generally, if you try hard enough, and you care about your work, you will succeed in public interest. The most important part, though, is to have advocates who have seen your work product, who care about you, and want you to succeed. Someone once told me to “walk away with powerful advocates” at every chance you get–so you need to find ways to have meaningful, continuing contact with your previous supervisors, professors or colleagues. Since the public interest law world is so small, you can’t do it alone–you need the support of others.

What experiences or internships did you complete in law school that helped prepare you for your work today?

Although I came to law school knowing what I wanted to do, I was inspired by studying the work of Thurgood Marshall and Charles Hamilton Houston in school. My internships in law school during both the summer and the school year shaped me more than anything else, though–there I was able to really see the work that I wanted to do in action and develop relationships. Going to law school, passing the bar, etc. were just requirements that were part of the path for me. 

Would you change your preparation for this position in any way if you had the chance?

If I had the chance to go back, I wish I would have known how important it is to build quality professional relationships. The advantage of reaching out to someone who works in an area in which you want to work is that they’ve done this before, and they therefore have years of experience in the area, so that they know how things work.

I also wish I would have better understood how legal services funding works. Where the funding is coming from, and how much is there, can really affect your ability to do your job–determine if your job even exists. Because of this funding uncertainty, there really is a lack of job security that is not there in private practice or in the federal government. You have to have very good reasons for going into this type of work–otherwise, there’s too many unknowns.

What advice would you offer to law students seeking a position in your area of practice?

There’s many schools of thought on this: the first says that you should develop a practice-specific resume, focusing intensely on one area so that you are the clearly the best candidate for a job. The second says that you should diversify and gain a wide variety of experiences. I’ve seen that a person who diversifies has to be a lot better at articulating a compelling story as to their motivations and goals, especially in interviews–otherwise, the individual who has focused on one area may come across as the better candidate.

 [Ed. note: Alejandro mentions the importance of professional networking as well as the value that his Equal Justice Works fellowship had in helping him carve out a career path.  Don’t miss PSJD’s resources on professional networking and postgraduate fellowships.  And email us at psjd@nalp.org with suggestions on how we can be most helpful to you.]

[Editor’s Note: we are re-launching our Expert Opinion blog series!  Every Thursday the PSJD Blog will feature a post containing career advice and other information from a variety of leaders in the public interest community.]

Ten Tips For Nailing Prosecutor/Public Defender Interviews

By: Chris Teague*

This gentleman knows from whence he speaks.

At the 2012 NALP Annual Education Conference in Austin, TX, I moderated a program titled “Hypothetically Speaking: Preparing Students for Prosecutor and Public Defender Interviews.”  The panel featured Rory Stein (the Miami Public Defender), Jeremy Sylestine ( of the Travis County, Texas District Attorney’s Office), and Rachel Peckerman (of NYU School of Law’s Public Interest Law Center) and offered excellent advice on how to approach interview hypotheticals. The panelists stressed that applicants should be prepared to articulate clearly why they want to work as a DA/PD.  They also offered many tips for handling hypos.  Here are my top 10, along with a list of frequently-encountered themes: 

General Tips

1. Be wary of answering questions by stating that you would check with your supervisor.  Hypos are designed to see how you react when confronted with very difficult fact patterns.  While your gut reaction may be to immediately consult your supervisor for help, it is important that you avoid the urge to “pass the buck” and instead deal with the difficult situation head-on.  If you believe the circumstances warrant the involvement of your supervisor, it may be OK to say so, but make sure your answer doesn’t end there.  Elaborate on this response and give your own assessment of the facts.   
2. Show your work.  Even if your answer is wrong (keep in mind that some hypotheticals don’t have one correct answer), make sure to talk through your analysis.  The interviewer will likely give you credit for demonstrating a logical approach or asking thoughtful questions, even if you ultimately arrive at the wrong answer. 

Tips for Prosecutor Interviews

1. Remember that a prosecutor’s primary goal is to pursue justice.  While it is important to demonstrate your willingness to uphold the law and to request incarceration if warranted, some prosecutor’s offices will ask questions that test your ability to see the bigger picture.  Also keep in mind that prosecutors represent the state, not the victim.  The victim’s interests may not always be in line with the state’s. 
2. Don’t disregard the Constitution no matter how serious the crime.  A prosecutor should never condone the violation of a defendant’s Constitutional rights, even when doing so appears to be advantageous.  Always go with the ethical, Constitutionally-sound answer.  
3. Be on the lookout for exculpatory evidence.  This is a popular interview topic.  Some hypos may deal primarily with a prosecutor’s obligation to disclose exculpatory evidence.  But be aware that other hypos – ones that appear to address a completely different topic – may secondarily touch upon exculpatory evidence.  If a question mentions evidence that may be exculpatory, even if it seems like a minor part of the question, you should discuss that evidence in your answer.  
4. Demonstrate sensitivity with reluctant victims and witnesses at all times, even when their reluctance negatively impacts your case.  This does not mean that victims and witnesses should always control how you handle a case, but rather that their opinions and concerns should be addressed in an appropriate and considerate way. 

Some common themes you may encounter:

• Exculpatory evidence (Hint: If the interviewer gives you information that might weaken or impede your case, it might be exculpatory.)
• Handling a reluctant witness (Hint: Reluctant witnesses sometimes appear as a scared or recanting domestic violence victim, or as a victim with collateral concerns, such as immigration issues.)
• Role of the prosecutor (Hint: If the hypo concerns a victim with credibility issues or doubts about the case, a lying police officer, weak evidence, or a misidentification issue, part of your answer may want to demonstrate your understanding of the prosecutor’s role in pursuing justice.)
• Search and seizure issues (Hint: You may be asked to advise a police officer how to proceed with the investigation of a suspicious person who is suspected of carrying contraband.)

Tips for Public Defender Interviews

1. Always zealously advocate for your client.  Advocating for your client may negatively impact a victim or witness; that is OK.  Unlike prosecutors, public defenders must act in the best interest of their clients, not in the pursuit of justice. 
2. Caveat: While you are zealously advocating for your client, be sure that you do not violate the law or any ethical rules. 
3. Demonstrate that you are completely comfortable representing people who have committed crimes.  Some applicants focus on their interest in representing defendants who have been unjustly accused of a crime.  This is certainly a noble endeavor, but be aware that public defenders often must represent people who “did it.”  Regardless, all criminal defendants are innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law and deserve the best defense possible.
4. Recognize the importance of earning a client’s confidence.  You may be asked to role play a client intake interview or otherwise demonstrate your ability to communicate with a client and build trust.  Be prepared for the “client” in your role play to be withdrawn or possibly hostile.

Some common themes you may encounter:

• If your client has told you that he committed the crime, is it ethical for you to argue to a jury during closing argument that “the defendant is absolutely innocent of these charges”?  (Hint: A defendant is innocent until proven guilty.  An attorney can – and should – use the closing argument to present his or her interpretation of the evidence presented during the trial.)
• Clients changing his or her story (Hint: You may be asked how you would handle a client who initially denies the charges and subsequently admits guilt.)
• Strategy conflict with client (Hint: Be open to client input, but be ready to respond to a client who wants you to do something that you believe would be harmful to the case.

Visit PSJD’s Government Careers page for more resources on prosecution and public defense careers.  Good luck!

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*About Chris Teague:  Chris is Associate Director of Career Services at Boston College Law School, after a 10-year career as an Assistant District Attorney in boston and as a defense attorney.  He currently serves as the NALP Northeast Regional Representative and is a past Chair of NALP’s LGBT Section.  Chris is an active member of the Massachusetts Legal Recruitment Association (where he currently serves as Secretary) and the Massachusetts Law School Consortium, and he is a frequent speaker and author on a wide range of career- and technology-related topics.

By: Ashley Matthews

Recently, the University of Virginia School of Law blogged a few invaluable tips from this year’s Public Defender Advocacy, Hiring and Training Conference (PATH), sponsored by the Public Defender Service of D.C. In a nutshell, passion pays off – you have to be able to show and explain just how ready you are to enter the field of indigent defense.

In a larger nutshell, here are the offered tips:

1. Know your personal motivation for being a public defender, because this will sustain your career.

2. Be realistic, but passionate, about why you want to be a public defender.

3. Convey that you are a “true believer” in your cover letter.

4. Since candidates start looking the same on paper, your passion and motivation should stand out.

5. If you’ve worked in prosecution or domestic violence, don’t be scared to address it.

6. Speak Spanish! If you don’t speak Spanish, learn Spanish! This increases your chances of employment.

7. Bring out the fact that you are client-centered in your interview.

8. Look at hypothetical questions from multiple angles.

9. When asked a hypothetical question, remember that public defender offices are paying attention to your instincts.

10. When role-playing, listen to your “client” and be mindful of your body language.

Click here to read the whole blog post!

By: Ashley Matthews

Congratulations, law school grads – you did it! After 3 years of casebooks, study groups, outlines, and hornbooks, it’s finally over.

But now, it’s the moment we’ve all been dreading/ignoring: student loan repayment. As the end of the grace period creeps onto our calendars, now is the best time to prepare. It’s no secret that student loan debt can hurt your economic status in a major way. And on a public interest salary, repaying student loans can be downright crippling. (Just ask a few of the lawyers recently profiled by the Philadelphia Inquirer – one of whom was forced by debt to move back home with parents at the tender age of 49.)

The good news is that you are not alone. Student loan expert Heather Jarvis, a former public interest attorney, is committed to reducing the financial barriers to practicing our favorite kind of law here at PSLawNet.  So before you have a severe panic attack at the thought of being shackled to your loans forever, take a look at these pointers from a recent blog post Jarvis wrote about taking the first baby steps to deal with our giant loans:

1. “Figure out which loans you have.” Sounds simple, right? Maybe for some, but many law students have multiple loans from different lenders. Some loans may even come from private lenders.

2. “Decide which consolidation works for you.” Loan consolidation is key to Public Interest Loan Forgiveness. If you have a FFEL loan, things may get a bit tricky.

3. “Choose a repayment plan.” This sounds simple too, right? Once again, it may be for some people – but for others, crafting the right plan involves weighing multiple options.

For more important information and links, check out the full blog post at Jarvis’ website, www.askheatherjarvis.com. This site is a wealth of information about student loans, so it would be smart to educate yourself well before you walk across the stage at law school graduation. The better prepared we are to handle student loan debt, the more we are able to commit ourselves to what matters most: using our law degree to help others in need.

by: Ashley Matthews

It’s that time of year again!

It’s already August, and the hustle and bustle of fall activity is starting. The last days of summer are drifting by, and many of us are packing up and moving on to new (and hopefully exciting!) places for law school, internships, or post-graduate work. We all know that some of the best places to do public interest work are in major cities like Los Angeles or Miami, but these urban areas can be alarmingly expensive, to say the least.

Los Angeles is one of the featured cities!
Photo Courtesy of CoolChaser.com

So what’s a starving student to do for fun on a tight budget while living in a thriving urban area? Check out PSLawNet’s handy guide, Having Fun on the Cheap in Big Cities, to get tips on living like a boss, but on an intern’s salary (or lack thereof).

Featured cities include:

1. Atlanta

2. Boston

3. Chicago

4. Los Angeles

5. Miami

6. New Orleans

7. New York

8. Philadelphia

9. San Francisco

10. Washington, D.C.

With information on all kinds of social and cultural attractions, this guide is full of fun things to do, places to go, and sights to see in some of the most popular cities in America. Keep it close while you explore your new city, and feel free to drop us a line at pslawnet@nalp.org if you have any suggestions to add to the list!