This is the final part of a two-part series. Special thanks to Leslie Guthrie for this guest post interviewing Mr. Thornton.

[Lightly edited for length, clarity, and language. Publication of this interview is not an endorsement of the opinions expressed within the interview.]

Please introduce yourself briefly and share about your current position, and any relevant positions, past internships or fellowships leading up to your job.

Brandon Thornton. I work in the Felony Trial Unit of the Public Defender’s Office. This is my sixth year there. I’ve been with the Public Defenders for 15 years: Started out in Juvenile. Did a brief bit of time at Central Booking? I spent four years at the misdemeanor trial unit.

In law school, I worked one summer for a small civil rights firm. One year I did a clinic for housing and economic development. Afterward, I was a judicial law clerk for Circuit Court in Baltimore City.

At what point did you figure out what you wanted to do? And how do you think the timing of that realization impacted where you are today?

Part of that process is contingent on where you’re hired. So, I had applied for the Public Defender’s Office partially because I had a lot of exposure as a judicial law clerk on the criminal docket. I got to see the employees of the office.

I actually had to push my start date back because of the work I was doing in the judicial clerkship.

My junior year of undergrad, I interned for the same chambers. I remember some of the attorneys that were there. And I had no idea what was going on. As a law clerk, I had questions and was responsible for some stuff that was happening in court.  I needed to understand what was going on. I didn’t understand the dynamic of trial. The judge had to explain a lot to me, but when you start to understand…you develop a certain compassion, a balance of fairness.

The narrative you usually get is law enforcement, crime, and punishment. There’s a crime, and we need to investigate. I got a more balanced perspective in that clerkship, from watching my judge. You have to keep in mind there are people on the other side of the table. You get to see that what’s alleged isn’t exactly what is.

Can you briefly describe the different types of work that the attorneys in your office do? (direct client work, research/writing, policy/advocacy, etc.)

We do almost everything there is to do concerning criminal defense. We do bail reviews. We do trial work.  We do an investigation. We hire investigators to do the investigation. We do legal research. We raise legal issues. We make sure the state has provided everything they need to provide. We manage big caseloads, so we have to manage our calendar.

Client work depends on the case and the client. Some clients are easier to get along with, and some aren’t. It just really depends on personality.

Are there any myths or beliefs about public interest law jobs that you have found to be inaccurate and false?

People may not know we work. We do our jobs. To do our jobs, we have to work beyond the hours you’re expected to work. Many people in my office are true believers for justice. By virtue of the volume of what we do, we have a lot of experience. We handle over 1,000 cases in a year. You’ve got to get a sense of what you’re doing.

…[S]ome people in private practice have to market themselves. You have to ask the question, “What distinguishes you from any other attorney I could hire? Or why shouldn’t I go with the Public Defender’s Office?” To sell themselves and distinguish themselves from us, they may say something that’s not so kind about what we do and how we do it. When in reality, we do so much of it.  

People often say that you learn how to do the work of lawyering on the job after graduation, but what type of skills building experiences can law students pursue to start the process of being an effective advocate?

Do clinic or mock experiences. Maybe come to the courthouse and copy statements of probable cause. Maybe contact the Public Defender’s Office to get a mock discovery packet. Or volunteer at the Public Defender’s Office, obviously. We always need help. See what the people who do that work do.

Find a way to find someone who does the role well of an adversary, who is going to challenge you.

Can you talk a little bit about the public interest law community and any recommendations you have to build your network and reputation as a law student?

There are a whole bunch of trial organizations, like the National Association of Defense Attorneys and a national public defender organization. They have a lot of resources and training. There’s this guy, Jonathan Rapping. His philosophy is of transformational advocacy, letting your client know that they have an advocate, someone who is going to tell their story and their side. There’s something to be said for being effective. You need to know the climate in which you operate, the system where you are. Get to know what works and doesn’t work. Learn what’s the best and fastest way to deal with some situations.

Some people see this as an isolated profession, where “all we have is us.” I disagree. You should work on professional development. Be a part of the Bar Association. Get to know other people. Be politically active. Public Defense isn’t the end all be all. You can do this to get the experience and see what the needs are.

You have to have your Continuing Legal Education. Participate in different programs. Some people do it for that purpose. But in each place, you have to contribute. If you want to be effective everywhere you go, contribute. Try to make sure the organization is effective. Try to make sure the content is relevant to what people need. Try to have happy hours, so you have an opportunity to socialize and gather. Think of ways in that organization to improve the practice of law in the criminal justice community.

Students expected to make less money when going into the public sector, but now face not being able to find a job.  Do you have recommendations for those committed to a career in public interest law?

Get a financial planner and/ or a financial plan. Investigate different ways for financial assistance, loan repayment. Although, I’ve heard the people say that that isn’t working out.

What do you think is the most pressing issue in our field today [such as international human rights, environment, civil rights, poverty law, etc.], and how would you resolve it?

I think everything in the criminal justice system needs to be rethought. The politics of prosecution needs to be rethought. The funding of the State’s Attorney’s Office is based on numbers, like any grant or other organization. You have to show certain benchmarks. You have to show certain arrests, convictions. So, to secure funding for the next year, you have to show you increased the number of arrests. Now you have to generate food for the system. And that translates into bodies. So now you’re arresting more people. You’re prosecuting more people. You’re recommending increased sentences so you can get more money for next year and secure your job.

It’s easy to generate money for law enforcement and the State Attorney’s Office, but there’s no advocate for the public defense work. I understand that not every politician wants to be responsible for saying, “We want to raise money for criminals.” Because that’s what some people would think. But the marketing pitch is more, “We are raising money to protect people’s rights.” Public defense is underfunded. There’s not really an advocate for that. We are chronically underfunded. We are chronically understaffed. People are bailing out of this system left and right. It’s just too much. And it makes you feel like the whole system is designed to fail.

Courts are not equipped to deal with the number of cases. There’s pressure that’s put on courts: judges respond to news stories. They don’t want to be in the news. So, the things that they do are geared towards keeping them out of public scrutiny. That may not necessarily translate to fairness or what’s appropriate for an individual.

The criminal justice system is a giant Band-Aid. What about meaningful economic development? You need leaders in other parts of society to keep people from getting to this point.

Can you recommend any valuable resources, websites, and organizations that have helped you in pursuing your career path?

I don’t know. The world has changed. The internet is much more developed now than when I was coming up. The person responsible for hiring me, I had already met him before I applied. It’s conventional wisdom now. You have to make inroads before you apply. Get the experience. Know how to get things done.

Don’t come into it cold, unless you’re going to do a crazy, excellent job that no one is ever going to forget you. Cover all your bases. Do a good job, so you’re well recommended by the people who do come in contact with you. But you got to show your face, so people know who you are. And not just the people who you’re working with. Those people aren’t necessarily the people who are going to have any swing in you being hired. You’re going to have to figure out how you’re going to cross paths with the people in leadership. Where are they networking? So, you can be there and introduce yourself.

What would you have wanted to know as a law student interested in working the public interest law sector?

I wish I had thought more about my career. I wish I had mapped out my career. You might spend more time in a place than you were anticipating. The experience that you seek may not come when you want it. So, you have to figure out how long you have to be in a place. Get a feel for how long it takes to get the hang of something. For me, it takes about two years. But I spent more than two years in each unit I’ve been in. Some of the guys I started with, they’re long gone. And there is a large number of people that I don’t know.

If you feel like you’ve been somewhere too long and there’s not the opportunity for growth, professional development, then you have to figure out what you want to do next.

Any final tips/things to avoid for those wanting to take a similar path as you?

Figure out for your self why you are doing the work you’re doing. The faster you figure that out, the better. …When the rubber hits the road, reality can be an extreme culture shock. If you’re a woman and you’re getting hit on by people who are incarcerated and aren’t restrained in any visible way…it can scare [] you. If you get into a verbal altercation at the jail, it can scare [] you – especially if you know what they’re charged with and think they can do this to you. If you get into court and a judge yells at you, it’s like [forget] this. I’m an adult, and that phase of my life is gone where people should be talking to me like that. Be ready for it. It’s not in the job description. 

Special thanks to Leslie Guthrie for this guest post interviewing Mr. Chaulk on his career journey, experience, and advice for public interest-minded law students. Leslie is a Baltimore native and proud future public defender.

This is the first of a two-part series. Check back next week to read Leslie’s interview with an attorney from the Maryland Office of the Public Defender!

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[Lightly edited for length, clarity, and language. Publication of this interview is not an endorsement of the opinions expressed within the interview.]

Disclaimer: The views Mr. Chaulk expresses don’t represent the views of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission or the United States. 

What past positions or experiences did you have leading up to this job? 

Before starting here in April 2018, I worked as a law clerk in the Commission’s Office of Administrative Law Judges for about a year and a half. Before coming to the FERC, I was a law clerk for the Court of Appeals in Maryland. That was my first job after law school.  

What goals do you have for your work and position? 

I’m keen to learn as much substantive information as I can on Energy Law. I came to the Commission in 2016 without any energy law history. Even though my colleagues (who have some experience) will say it feels like drinking from a fire hose, I think it all the more…I feel like I’m at the bottom of a steep learning curve.  

I would love to take my growing knowledge and work in the solicitor’s office within the Office of the General Counsel. In law school and as a law clerk, I really enjoyed appellate work. That would be a dream job in building on where I am now.  

At what point did you figure out what you wanted to do? And how do you think the timing of that realization impacted where you are today? 

I’m still trying to figure out my path. One of the reasons I came here is that the field seemed like an important one. I could see myself learning a lot, growing a lot, and hopefully doing good work. I had an interest in doing environmental law. When I was clerking in Maryland, environmental law was on my mind. I got to work on an environmental law case and I was eager to dive into technical matters. I thought this work might be a good fit and make me happy. With that case, I found the beginning of my [place in public interest law].   

The timing of that realization was somewhat brought on by the fact that I had been trying to get into the Maryland Office of the Public Defender. And I just didn’t get a position. So, I turned away from that path and, with an open mind, tried to look at new possibilities.  

What type of skill-building experiences can law students pursue to start the process of being an effective advocate? 

Build strong interpersonal skills. I think it’s useful as a student throughout law school, but particularly in the first half, to gauge where your strengths and weaknesses are. Once you have more control over your schedule and opportunities, it’s wise to pursue clinics and internships and extracurricular activities, like a law journal or moot court, over classes.  

For example, I had the opportunity to improve my speaking skills in moot court competitions. That gave me a tremendous amount of confidence and experience to draw upon even in different settings as a lawyer. I learned to advocate for my work product, the things I research and write. Build that work-ethic. Build the demonstrated ability to analyze and communicate.  

Look at the experiences you have as an opportunity to develop relationships – whether that’s meeting alumnus at a networking event or getting to know the administrative staff at the office you work at over the summer.  

Be mindful of the body of work experience you’re developing as a student. I came to law school after working as a Peace Corps volunteer. My first summer, I worked at the Sierra Club. I was mindful as I looked at opportunities later on that I might be kind of pigeon-holed as someone who hasn’t shown a willingness to look at issues from more than one side. I encourage students to think about the experiences they are curating and how optically they come across to employers. Which isn’t to say your professional life should be super balanced. But being able to say, “I can look at an issue from multiple perspectives that different groups have.” That’s valuable.  

I was pretty active about [trying to achieve that balance]. My second academic year, I worked for a trade association called the American Chemistry Council. I decided to take more classes that were business-oriented to pick up more knowledge and skills and viewpoints.  

How do you suggest students build their public interest network and reputation? 

I still remember talking to my advisor about a scholarly article that I wrote, before she agreed to advise me. She told me to find a champion.  I have interpreted that, as a student and an attorney, to mean: find people who are going to advocate for you when you’re not around and when you’re seeking opportunities.  

In terms of putting that into action, it’s a matter of always doing good work. People are watching you – whether it’s your direct supervisor or someone attending a presentation you’re giving or a professor whose office hours you went to. You might not know who the champion is going to be. Be committed to doing good work for its own sake and for the possibility that it may connect you to somebody that can be a positive force in your career.  

Also, look for and be mindful of what opportunities there are for you to shine – whether that be a competition or writing an article. Look for ways to promote yourself.  This is coming from someone who is very introverted, so I had to be intentional about it. But you want to put yourself in a position for other people to see the quality of work that you do.  

 What opportunities do you recommend law students take to build that network, find those champions?  

Even though it’s difficult to balance everything, try to attend events that the law school offers, whether it is networking or educational. Going there to learn, to be curious, to ask questions – that’s another way that you may connect with people who can be helpful as you go forward.   

Talk to attorneys who are at different stages in their careers. Get as many perspectives as possible. I know when I started at FERC, I talked to someone who was previously a law clerk so he could share his experience working in that office. I also spoke to someone my mother knows, who has decades of experience in the energy law field. He had a different perspective. If we just talk to one person about something, it might limit our understanding of what we’re going to be setting ourselves up for.  

As a self-professed introvert, how did/do you network? 

I enjoy speaking to people one on one. The opportunity to have that smaller, more intimate setting is something I’m more comfortable with.  

As a student, I would send cold e-mails to people that worked in fields that interested me. I expressed that interest and said “would you be willing to meet for coffee or chat on the phone for a few minutes?” And then prepare some questions. You want to learn about what the person does, how they got there, and what you want to be mindful of.  

It certainly helps if there is some kind of connection – if they attended the same law school, the same college, maybe work in a city that you’re interested in. Look for things that you have in common, so the attorney wants to share some of his or her time. 

Get to know professors. You already have an established connection by taking their class. And even if it’s not somebody who is your current professor, if they teach something that you’re interested in, that can be a learning opportunity. I would hope that because the professor works for your law school, they would understand the value in taking the time to help you develop. You participate in the same community. 

I know that those one-on-one conversations are more comfortable than walking into a big room with a lot of attorneys or alumni at an event. So, I create opportunities to have them.  

How would you recommend students prepare themselves to be competitive candidates in the job market? 

The time you invest as a student when you don’t have to have a job should create a bit of freedom to know people that are in the legal community – professors, classmates, people with decades of experience.  

Only a certain number of people can be number one in the class or have titles or awards that lend credibility. Building relationships is close to being just as important. Whether or not you’re interested in public interest law, dedicating a portion of your experience as a student to building relationships is critical to whatever career you want.  

Can you recommend any valuable resources, websites, and organizations that have helped you in pursuing your career path? 

Talking to professors and the career development office. That’s the best resource because it’s a human resource. These people have the information, and they are connected to the employers out there.  It doesn’t matter who you know or how well you’re doing. What matters is who knows you.  

What would you have wanted to know as a law student interested in working the public interest law sector? 

Do your homework. Your school work, obviously. But “you” homework. Take the time to reflect.  Finding a job will pay the bills, but staying there is dependent on what motivates you. So, try to figure that out earlier rather than later. There can be a lot of signs about where you should go, what you should do, but it’s your choice. Have that sense of what you want to do. If it interests you and motivates you, that’s important.  

Learn as much as you can about the places you’re interested in working. I’ve had some experiences where I didn’t find the work engaging. It didn’t affect the work product, but it changed my happiness level. To the extent that you can as a student or an advocate, think about what makes me happy on a granular level (for example, writing or speaking) and at a higher level (like trying to improve the criminal justice system). Have an array of ideas of what you’d like to do. Figure out if the places you’re looking out will help you do that in the long term or short term. That is how you find a place where you can thrive   

Public Interest jobs can come with a lot of stress. How do you manage that stress? 

I’ve been a lifelong athlete and fitness enthusiast. I was pretty clear with myself that I had to make time to be active as a law student. I found that I needed more than just a physical outlet after I moved to Washington in 2016. I did not have as close of a community as I had when I was a student. So, I trained last year to become a yoga teacher at a place called Yoga District.  

I’ve been practicing yoga for a little over 10 years. But I’ve now been teaching and committed to having a meditation practice for about a year. I teach a class at FERC, here at the Commission, and will be teaching classes at the DC jail.   

There should be no shame or hesitation: make time for acts of self-care. Hopefully, those acts make you feel healthy and don’t promote negative behaviors or outcome. I noticed a considerable improvement in my well-being when I reached out, became part of this community of folks that were also training to become yoga teachers. Yoga District is such a wonderful community, and I feel much more connected to DC now that I’ve become part of it. Having a sense of community is very important. Try to cultivate that in and outside of work.  

Organization

A Better Balance is a national legal advocacy organization with offices in Nashville, TN and New York, NY dedicated to promoting fairness in the workplace and helping workers care for their families without sacrificing their economic security. Through nationwide policy advocacy, legal services and strategic litigation, and enforcement and education, ABB is fighting back and improving workers’ lives at the local, state and federal levels. The organization has fought for and won victories in improved paid leave, equal pay, pregnancy and caregiver protection, breastfeeding accommodations, LGBTQ rights protections, and other economic justice issues throughout the country.  

Position

Based in Nashville, TN, the Staff Attorney would advance the goals of A Better Balance by promoting fairness for working families in the South and raising awareness nationally of local issues affecting Southern low-wage workers, especially marginalized communities. The Staff Attorney would work in the following areas: combating discrimination and unfair practices against women and caregivers, such as pregnancy & breastfeeding discrimination and Family and Medical Leave Act violations, staffing our free legal helpline to assist low-wage workers, being part of a team working on impact litigation cases, drafting and disseminating public education materials, and conducting legal research.

See the full post on PSJD: https://www.psjd.org/opportunitydetails?OppID=86603 

Awa Sowe, PSJD Fellow

October was a big month for us here at PSJD. Our annual mini-conference went off without a hitch- many thanks to all the employers and career services professionals who attended!  PSJD was also an exhibitor at the Equal Justice Conference and Career Fair and witnessing the next generation of social-justice-minded lawyers was exhilarating.  These past few weeks are just a continuation of PSJD’s successful year, which is highlighted by our ever-expanding job database (our 2017-2018 overall jobs present exceeded the three-year average).

 As our database continues to grow, we want to ensure that all geographic regions in our subscribing schools’ network are being represented in proportion to the size of the public interest legal market in each individual state. Therefore, we have developed a method for calculating each state’s job market for entry-level legal positions and comparing this information to the state’s presence on PSJD’s job database.  

This automated method allows us to identify any imbalances between the number of recent law graduates entering the public interest legal market in a state versus the number of entry-level positions on PSJD for that state. With this information in hand, the next step is developing a framework for reducing such gaps.

Interested public, PSJD subscribers and friends, be on the lookout for exciting developments with this new project in the coming months. As always, shoot us an email at psjd@nalp.org if you have any opportunities you’d like to forward our way.